Episode 35

full
Published on:

26th Jul 2022

35. Esports, But Make it Web3

Today's episode features Jen Hall, Head of Strategic Partnerships in Southeast Asia and India for Ampverse. Ampverse is an esports company that focuses on team development, influencer relationships, and key strategic partnerships in Southeast Asia and India. Our discussion was centered on gaming culture in Asia, taking a different approach to monetization and fan engagement, and what Web3/blockchain gaming have to offer. Plus, we talk about how Nescafe gave fans the chance to play with their esports heroes.

Episode Resources

https://ampverse.com/jenny-hall/

https://techcrunch.com/2022/03/28/singapore-based-esports-startup-ampverse-lands-12m/

Transcript
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Welcome to the meadow woman podcast. We address the

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issues, opportunities and challenges facing women in the

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development of the metaverse the biggest revolution since the

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internet itself. Every week we bring you conversations with top

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female talent and business executives operating in the

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gaming and crypto industries. Here's your host Lindsey, the

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boss POS, the meta woman podcast starts now. Hello, and welcome

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to the meta woman podcast part of the holodeck media Podcast

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Network. I'm your host, as always Lindsay, the Boss Boss.

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And from struggle to success. We're covering it all returning

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listeners, thank you so much for listening every week. Thank you

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for leaving review. Thank you for engaging with me sending me

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your thoughts. And for all the new listeners out there. I hope

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you enjoy and I hope you'll come back next week. This is going to

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be such a fun conversation about esports in the market in

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Southeast Asia. I'm delighted to welcome Jen Hall, head of

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strategic partnerships in Southeast Asia and India for

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Amber's. Jen, welcome to the show. It's so great to have you.

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Hi, Lindsay, thank you so much for having me. I've been looking

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forward to this for ages. Yes, me too. i To start, I would love

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for you to tell me a little bit about your current position and

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apologies and versus a company. I know, we're gonna walk through

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a lot of the background. But I definitely want to hear, you

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know, what you do what you love, what it's all about now, the

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first? Oh, sure. So thanks very much for the introduction. So I

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am head of strategic partnerships at amphis. And we

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are a gaming and entertainment company operating across

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Southeast Asia and South Asia. So our vision really is to bring

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inspiration to every gamer everywhere. So we're on a real

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mission to develop innovative esports teams, talents, and also

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products. So we own and operate championship winning esports

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teams across the region, Thailand, Vietnam, India, soon

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to launch in the Philippines. And then Indonesia, probably at

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the latter part of this year or early next year, as well. So I

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can sort of talk a little bit about my role as well at the

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moment. Yes, yeah. So for those of you that are listening and

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not watching, you should definitely go look at the

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YouTube video because Jen's cat is just being an absolute

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author, making a great appearance today. So welcome

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pets on the show.

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She's such an attention seeker. She absolutely loves it. And so

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yeah, so going back to sort of my role. Oh, here she is, again.

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And it really splits into kind of two key parts. So the first

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part is all about product development. So for us, it's all

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about focusing on developing our own IP, and really further

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gaming and esports communities that sit at the intersection, of

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course of popular culture. So initially, when we first

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launched back in 2019, we were really focused on our esports

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teams and sponsorship opportunities, and also very

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much on sort of the influencer campaigns. And this really made

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sense for a lot of brands as well that we were partnering

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with, because of course, for a lot of them, they were really

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just starting to dip their toes into sort of gaming and esports

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space. But as things have developed, obviously, the

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industry has matured somewhat. And now having secured our

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Series A developing our own IP products has become a really

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kind of crucial part of that. So it's everything from to

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developing original content series to fan powered events and

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tournaments. And also now very much focused as well on web

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three, the metaverse and also this space of NFT, and

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activations, which I know we'll be talking more about later. So

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that's kind of the first part. So it's really about product.

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And then the second part, I'm very focused as well, obviously,

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on the partnership side. So for us, it's about focusing on where

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are those mutually beneficial partnerships that we can find

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that will help to elevate the profile of our esports teams and

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talents. And at the same time, of course, be able to elevate

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the presence of that that brand, as well across the gaming and

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esports communities in the region. So that can be anything

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from sort of partnerships with music labels, and artists,

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through to apparel brands, also charities.

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And also as well with media and broadcasting as well,

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particularly for the original.

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So many things to dig into. And I was, you know, we started

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chatting right before this. And so there's a question that I

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really, really want to ask, even though it's not even close to

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the first question on the list that I have written here. Um,

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but we're talking about developing partnerships,

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strategies and sponsorship strategies. And being a

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relatively young organization. I mean, two and a half, three

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years is is probably actually quite old for esports. But it's

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also young in terms of building a company and fleshing out a

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strategy and so much of that was the COVID pandemic, which just

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threw a wrench in everyone's business plans.

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I would love to talk about because you

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mentioned that you started with a lot of influencer partnerships

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and things like that. And how has it changed from content

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marketing focus to event focused? Like, what is the?

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How have you been approaching partnerships? From the like, we

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were just talking about it, but IRL versus digital, you have

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like the IRL, the events, the teams, all that stuff that you

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can do all kinds of and engagement with. And then you

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also have social media, Twitch streams, all that stuff that you

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can do digital engagement with. So what have you how has this

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changed in the third year? And what are you kind of looking

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forward to with balancing those two things? Yeah, great

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question. So, um, I think in the past, you know, and obviously,

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during COVID, everything had to move online. So, you know, being

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given that Gen Z, and millennials really are the core

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of the the gaming space as well, particularly, and very much from

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an esports perspective as well, it really wasn't too much of a

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difficult transition, as you as you mentioned, already, everyone

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engaging with all of these platforms like YouTube and

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Facebook, and also to some degree in this region as well

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with rich, although I would say to a slightly lesser extent. So

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really, it was, it was very natural for us. I think for a

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lot of brands, as I mentioned, you know, sort of gaming was

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really quite abstract, and that no one really kind of understood

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it. But as we went through the COVID, period, it was really

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about a process of education, obviously, gaming grew and

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esports, as well, exponentially. And a lot of brands started to

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realize the importance of, you know, understanding the space.

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So it was really very important for us to start at the Education

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phase, and developing a lot of sort of insights around that to

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really help the brands understand. And so sort of the

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natural progression for them was to start with the influences.

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It's something that they knew, obviously, outside of gaming.

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And so obviously, that was kind of an easy in. And of course,

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for us, you know, the data element behind that was really

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important, just showcasing the sheer amount of engagement that

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was happening and the level of viewership as well, both both

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for our esports teams, but also for the influences that we have,

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as well in the market. And it really was a whole different

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combination of different content formats, as well. So everything

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from you know, the sort of online esports tournaments

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through to watching our Kol is in gameplay, and then also off

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the back of that then sort of entertainment series that

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actually UGC was a huge part of that. And of course, that didn't

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really interrupt our gaming Kol. Like they could still capture a

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lot of footage and create entertaining content. So that

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was kind of the first part. And then that really then started to

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develop more into kind of tournaments as well. So things

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like online show matches with some of these top influencers,

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which which proved really engaging. And I've actually kind

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of got some other examples to be able to share later.

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And so brands really started to see the benefit of of engaging

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with these sort of different types of online formats as well,

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during that time. You know, they're all trying to fight the

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eyeballs. And of course, this is where everyone was, was drawn to

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during that time as well. So it was a great, it was a great

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opportunity to engage with the community then. But it really

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did come back to kind of showcasing the data behind that

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to really kind of give them that that level of reassurance.

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Have you noticed? And again, we were actually just speaking

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about this before, but on the consumer end, have you noticed

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if people are finally starting to kind of come back to in

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person events? Or has there been more of a strong preference for

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online stuff still? Like, are you seeing that article?

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Really good question. So to be honest, in the first part of

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this year, I would say it's definitely still been very much

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more focused on the online. I think a lot of people were still

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kind of treading carefully in this earlier in this year,

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particularly in a lot of the Southeast Asia markets, you

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know, it took a lot longer for us to sort of come out the other

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side of things like lock downs versus a lot of the Western

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countries. So the focus was still very much online. I think

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last year cup to get share a kind of couple of examples. With

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you. I think one of the examples that we have from Thailand was

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we we ran a online sort of show matching tournament last year

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for NES cafe, to be able to promote their

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their espresso product that they were launching in the market.

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And their key objective because they couldn't reach consumers

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offline was to really generate awareness through the Gen Z

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audience, but also to drive actual purchase. So we actually

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set up an online tournament with our top gaming influencers in

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Thailand and ran a competition. So for every espresso cam that

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was purchased, the shopper could actually register that purchase

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online and then they had a chance to win a spot to play in

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The tournaments with their influence idols, and win all

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sorts of cool prizes at the same time. So that was a really cool

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activation. Yeah.

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It was really well received, we actually just won an award for

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it from the media agency association of Thailand, which

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was really exciting.

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But yeah, I think that was a great example of how you know, a

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brand really engaged with this space and really understood the

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benefits of being able to activate through an online

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initiative as well with the community. And of course,

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ultimately, still drive that that engagement and purchase

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behavior as well. And then another example, this year that

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we ran, actually in India was a collaboration with Gillette. So

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we created a pro esports tournament online called the

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Gillette and seven seat Invitational, which we ran in

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partnership with spaceports, our partner in India. And we

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achieved over 83 million impressions for that particular

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campaign. It was a nine day tournament, all online, a

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fantastic opportunity for our audience as well to be able to

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engage with the Gillette brands. And in fact, we have just run a

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community survey recently, with our seven C community. We've

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seen fantastic results in tons of that brand sentiment as well

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for Gillette, and then Mac three product, which essentially was a

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partnership that they forged as well, with the GMI in the

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market. So a lot of it has still very much been these kinds of

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online activations in various different forms. But certainly a

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big focus for me now as well in my role is all about these in

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person, and powered events as well. So we're starting to build

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out hyperlocal

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events in each of our local markets. We're thinking on this

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of this in a very broad way, though. So it's all about sort

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of gaming and lifestyle. So there are various different

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elements that we're going to be interacting into those sort of

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programs, everything from sort of the esports element side, to

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also web three with playing, earn gaming, so giving the

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community an opportunity to participate and learn about the

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opportunities with the playing and bass games with NF T's, as

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well, which we will also be integrating into the space. And

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I think, yeah, those kinds of opportunities to actually bring

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the fans together in person, and an opportunity to sort of

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interact in that level, and also ensure that we've got a lot of

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immersive experiences that they can join person as well will be

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really important. But I really think that it's, you know, the

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two are very synergistic, you know, there's a huge amount of

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overlap between the online and offline. So whilst a lot of

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these offline events will be taking place, it's still

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absolutely crucial that a lot of this is captured for the online

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audience at the same time.

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That makes sense. I have kind of two follow up questions there,

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especially since we started talking about web three and

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NFPs, which is great. So much fun for me. Um, the first and

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this is this is backing up a little bit, but what are the

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major streaming providers that you use? And, and I want, I'm

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curious, because I, I know about, you know, Billy, Billy,

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and dou, u and China, but I don't know how far that market

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extends and where it's at in Southeast Asia. So that's kind

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of the first question of we have put here. What do you all use?

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And then the second question about, you know, web three and N

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FPS is what is the reception like with the audience that

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you're working with? Again, the North American audiences had a

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very, say checkered response to incorporating NF Ts and playing

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our games. So yeah, so what are the sharing platforms? And

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what's the attitude towards web three and crypto games where

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you're at? Awesome. So I think, to answer your first question,

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kind of taking it back a step, I think one of the most important

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things for people to understand is that Asia as a whole is

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extremely fragmented. You know, it's very different to working

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in the US or Europe. 100 Yeah, yeah, sorry, just interrupted.

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That's what I was thinking. I was like, I feel like the

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Chinese streaming services are not going to be popular in

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Southeast Asia. They're certainly very different.

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And China sort of is a is a beast of its own, to be honest,

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but you know, everything from from the language element

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through to all of the different cultural nuances. I think it's

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really important to understand that every market is extremely

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different, and we have to take them in isolation. So, you know,

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for us as a business, it's really important that we take a

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hyperlocal approach as well to everything that we do. So

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answering your question about the streaming platforms. It's

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really interesting that you generally see if I'm going to

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generalize that YouTube is actually the most prominent

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platform across the region.

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It's really seen a huge level of success over the years

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But there definitely are different iterations across each

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of the markets as well. So Facebook is also extremely

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popular in certain markets. So for instance, in the

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Philippines, Facebook is a much bigger platform for the gaming

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and esports community than YouTube. And then in India, it's

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still very much about YouTube. But then you've also got some of

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these new streaming platforms emerging like Loco and also

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router as well, who essentially refer to themselves as the

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twitch of India. So that's a really different an interesting

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dynamic there. So yes, it's definitely really fragmented.

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And we really have to take every market and isolation to assess,

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which is the optimum platform that we want to be able to

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execute on

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in each market, as well, and depending on the type of

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application.

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And then what were the attitudes towards web replan on games and

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lefties in games? Like I said, in the US and North America,

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it's not good, which is sad to me personally. But I would love

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to know, like, what the attitudes are, like, where

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you're at and who you're working with? Yeah, for sure. So, um,

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like, I think there's definitely a huge amount of hype, I think

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one of the first exciting things to mention as that we are fully

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invested in this space. So in fact, we just hosted our web

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three launch event around two weeks ago in Bangkok, which was

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fantastic. There's a huge amount of interest and excitement. In

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fact, we well oversubscribed on the guest list as well, because

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I think so many people are really interested to learn about

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this space. And so sort of off the back of that, I think, yeah,

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one of the key elements here is, is education. I think there's a

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lot of people who are extremely skeptical.

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But I think at the same time, there's a lot of people who are

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eager to learn. So both on the b2b level and learn about the

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opportunities there. We are already forging a lot of

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different exciting partnerships with virtual worlds and the

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metaverse also with some of these global game publishers in

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the space, the likes of an Animoca brands or, or a gala or

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spy neighbors, etc, which is super exciting. But it's also

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really interesting when we conducted surveys with our

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esports communities recently, around our teens, there's been a

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huge level of interest in learning about crypto and the

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NFT space, and also play and earn. So actually recently with

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some of the surveys that we conducted in Thailand with our

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bacon time community, who were very mobile focused, and then

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our myth community who are much more PC focused around 85 to 95%

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said they were essentially interested to learn about crypto

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and the blockchain gaming space. So

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there's a huge amount of interest here, and also those

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that actually want to learn more about playing earn.

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And so, you know, we first see there's a huge opportunity, you

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know, with this younger generation, but it's very much

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about taking the first steps on on education, and giving them a

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level of confidence there as well. So making sure that

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everything that we do is focused on entertainment and having fun

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at the core, I think that's crucial, as we know, for any

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part of gaming, so every single activation that we are going to

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be taking this space has to be entertaining and fun at its

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core. And also, I think really losing the jargon. There's so

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much jargon around from the metaverse and crypto and NF T's.

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And I think everyone just feels totally overwhelmed. So I think

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it's about ensuring that we're creating a sense of simplicity

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around it as well, to help people really understand and

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then engage with the space. So

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I definitely think we've kind of got a lot of opportunity there

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with people in terms of interest levels. And I think the other

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thing to bear in mind is that, you know, from from a web three

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perspective as well, like gaming has been at the core of that

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since like the start right. You know, you've had Roblox which

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started back in 2006, which is crazy to think and they've got

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like something crazy, like over 200 million daily active users,

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you know, so from from that element, and where we've got

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that younger audience who are very much digital natives, who

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are already interacting and finding their their sort of

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social interactions taking place a lot of the time in this space

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as well. It's also quite natural to them.

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So as we see the development more of like these new virtual

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worlds in the metaverse, so we've got like the likes of

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sandbox and decentraland. And there's sort of a whole host of

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new virtual worlds opening up at the time. I foresee that

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actually, it's really natural fit with the esports and gaming

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communities as well. So

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I envisage that you know, the uptake is only going to continue

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to increase and from the play and and space as well. I think

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this is really interesting. So, for us as part of our web three

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business pillar, we've actually developed our new

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I'm guild, I'm focused on Play and earn blockchain based games.

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So we really want to be able to open up an opportunity for all

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players to earn for the time and effort that they're spending,

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playing these sorts of games. So ultimately, like giving people

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control and ownership back of the time and money that they're

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spending when they gaming, which of course has in the past, not

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not been possible in the in the same way. So, for us, we really

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want to open up these opportunities, and develop a

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sense of community, which again, is at the core of everything

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that we want to really achieve and do so an opportunity for

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everyone to be able to play, reap the rewards of that.

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And yeah, even at the next level, then think about how we

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can then take that to the competitive level. So start to

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pick out some of those real top players in this space as well.

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Which in the webinar spaces is sorry, playing on Spaces is

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referred to as scholars, and actually starting to forge our

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own esports teams in the space to

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pause really quick and we'll edit this out. But would you

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mind putting your camera off and then back on you've gotten

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frozen? I don't think it's going to be an issue in the upload.

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But it's hard for me to tell.

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Is that better?

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Actually, still frozen, but should be uploading correctly.

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The only reason I was asking is okay.

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Yeah, I think that's the studio. Okay. Good thing is what I see.

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And what gets uploaded are two very different things. Okay.

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It I'm not worried as long as everything said, upload.

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Sure.

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It's

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good.

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A second?

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No, I'm doing anything, but don't worry about it. Like I

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said, I will, like, as it will get uploaded properly, I just

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can't see it live. Okay, so I'll try this totally fine. It's not

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a problem at all. I have a feeling that my computer's

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offloaded over. I think that's why

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it gets mad at me when I use Riverside for too long. But

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that's okay. No worries. Um, so I'm gonna give a 321 Countdown

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and then we'll get right back into it.

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321.

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So following up on all that, I would love to hear because you

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mentioned right at the end, and this is actually a perfect segue

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into the question that I wanted to ask. Um, you started talking

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about developing esports teams and getting competitive players

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on a roster. To then, you know, do all the partnership

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sponsorship things that you're doing with AMP first?

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I'm wondering.

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So, first of all, it's just funny to me to think about a

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player playing a play in earn game and then also streaming it

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and making money on top like, that's, that's great. That's a

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good thing. It's just like the best form of double dipping, I

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can think of honestly, but I'm wondering what that looks like.

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Like, are you when you're talking about developing esports

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teams, particularly for players and kind of using newer spaces?

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Especially? Are you thinking about them in the same way that

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you're thinking of, say, a competitive CSGO? Team? And I

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would imagine that it's going to be different, but what elements

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are you kind of taking from I guess, we're already getting to

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the point where it's traditional esports structure and thinking

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about bringing those into web three. And where do you think

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there might be differences? Yeah, absolutely. So um, great

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question. Um, certainly, from the differences perspective, I

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would say it's, it's more around sort of the game titles that are

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already out there in the plan space already, and versus what

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is obviously there from a traditional esports perspective,

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I think just taking a step back very quickly. In terms of the

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games, it's probably worth me pointing out that obviously,

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given that this market is so fragmented, in Southeast Asia,

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there's a huge difference in terms of the game titles that

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are actually being played, and a lot of which will be very

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different to the to the US and Europe as well. So you know, our

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esports teams in Thailand, we have two, one called Bacon time,

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which is focused on mobile games. They play arena of Valor,

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which is the most popular game in that market. It's actually

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known as honor of kings in China, but that's extremely

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popular in Thailand, and then also in Vietnam. However, if we

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then go and look at, you know, markets like the Philippines and

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Indonesia, you've then got mobile titles like mobile

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legends Bang Bang, which is

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extremely popular as well as an esports title and then also Dota

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two. And then in India you have BGI, which is no battlegrounds

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mobile India, which essentially is the same game as pub G

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mobile, but it was actually relaunched as BGI by Crafton in

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the market as sort of political conflict between India and China

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actually prevented a lot of the Chinese apps from from being

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present in the market anymore. So in terms of the game titles,

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these esports titles as well that the teams are playing,

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they're extremely diverse across the region. But what I would say

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is that, you know, the most important thing is that they

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are, you know, high quality, obviously, highly competitive

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and fun. So I think from from my point of view of the playing and

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space,

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this is only just starting to reach a point really, where

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there are games being launched into the market that are really

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starting to fit the bill to be classified as an esports. Game.

Unknown:

So in fact, there's one particular game at the moment

Unknown:

that are playing own guilds have been already hosting

Unknown:

tournaments, as well, we ornaments for the community to

Unknown:

enjoy. And that's called a spider tanks, which is published

Unknown:

by dollar games.

Unknown:

So we've already noticed a really significant uptake as

Unknown:

well for this particular game format. So much so that we

Unknown:

actually even took our plan on guilty and esports teams. And

Unknown:

also there were a range of other esports students from across

Unknown:

Africa, parts of Europe, as well to actually play in a plan and a

Unknown:

blockchain based game esports tournament in Dubai. So that was

Unknown:

awesome. I want to say that I think it's the first esports

Unknown:

team and esports tournaments, sorry, that has actually been

Unknown:

hosted as a LAN event for any blockchain based games to date,

Unknown:

which was super exciting.

Unknown:

So cool, really cool. And in fact, sort of going back to your

Unknown:

point about the players side as well, we actually had one of our

Unknown:

ex pro players actually playing in our field esports team for

Unknown:

that specific event. And there are a number of our players that

Unknown:

have actually really enjoyed the experience of playing this

Unknown:

specific title. And they really feel that it's, it's a

Unknown:

competitive game that actually really has legs. So um, so we're

Unknown:

heavily invested in games, really, that actually have that

Unknown:

esports element around them, as well. So again, making it more

Unknown:

exciting for the community, allowing us to set up

Unknown:

tournaments, with prize balls, etc. So yeah, I think I think

Unknown:

there's still a long way to go. But definitely, we're starting

Unknown:

to see more of an emergence of sort of these plant based games

Unknown:

that have that really competitive button element and a

Unknown:

high enough quality to really justify kind of that that

Unknown:

esports title as well.

Unknown:

That is so cool. I can't believe that there's already tournaments

Unknown:

happening, you know, I feel like everything is coming. I mean,

Unknown:

it's, it's tech, so everything moves at the speed of wine, of

Unknown:

course. Um, that's a really, really me, and exciting. That's

Unknown:

really cool. Um, let's back up for a second and actually talk

Unknown:

about you because we've been talking about ampars. This whole

Unknown:

time, I plan for the episode was to talk about you first and then

Unknown:

get into some of the work you're doing. But we just started off

Unknown:

on such cool roads, I couldn't help but follow them. So I want

Unknown:

to back up. And I want to know how you wound up getting

Unknown:

involved in a young person. Here. You are talking about web

Unknown:

three gaming, you're, you're one of the few people I've met, who

Unknown:

does that really often, you know, like, how did you get

Unknown:

here? What's your story with that? Good question. Really good

Unknown:

question. And it's not a conventional story at all my, my

Unknown:

actual background wasn't in gaming. Really, before I joined

Unknown:

us. I was a bit of a gamer when I was sort of much younger, and

Unknown:

in my teens. So starting from playing games on my dad's PC

Unknown:

like Prince of Persia, I'm now showing my age.

Unknown:

So I used to love such a good one, though. It's

Unknown:

absolute classic. I used to love that. So I'm famous like Prince

Unknown:

of Persia, have you seen Mario Kart and so that that was a big

Unknown:

feature in our household all the way through to then getting

Unknown:

really into quake as well. So my dad will be quake and I started

Unknown:

quite obsessed with that game. But really, that kind of that

Unknown:

kind of interesting gaming sort of stopped in my late teens, you

Unknown:

know, I was going to university etc. And so yeah, that like,

Unknown:

from that time, gaming didn't really kind of feature. I

Unknown:

actually left university and went to cancer, which is a part

Unknown:

of WPP and essentially, I was working on on a graduate scheme,

Unknown:

and they cancel Worldpanel division. So I was dealing at

Unknown:

the time with consumer and shopper insights in grocery, so

Unknown:

a very, very different world.

Unknown:

I watched them in London.

Unknown:

For about three years, I'm really kind of soaking up like a

Unknown:

sponge, all of the kind of key soft skills that I was able to

Unknown:

develop. So how to kind of assess data and develop insights

Unknown:

on how to create proposals how to pitch to clients, and most

Unknown:

importantly, also being able to really manage client

Unknown:

relationships. And I think that's, that's something that,

Unknown:

for me has always been the biggest passion point. I love

Unknown:

working with people. And obviously trying to make sure

Unknown:

that I'm kind of giving them the best possible service

Unknown:

as possible. So yeah, I work I've worked for them for about

Unknown:

three years. I always had a love for Asia, I traveled in Asia

Unknown:

already for a number of years, as well as specifically

Unknown:

Thailand, a role came up in Thailand, that was supposed to

Unknown:

be a six months a comment. And it turned into six and a half

Unknown:

years. And so I was doing a very similar role to be up but I had

Unknown:

the opportunity to travel all over Asia, meeting new clients

Unknown:

presenting I was in China one week, Taiwan, the Philippines,

Unknown:

Vietnam, so you name it, I went everywhere. And I was just so

Unknown:

lucky to have such a fantastic opportunity and, and really kind

Unknown:

of get under the skin of Asia and the different markets and

Unknown:

the different cultural nuances as well. So yeah, I worked for

Unknown:

them. In time for about six and a half years, I then moved with

Unknown:

my role and started working on the Procter and Gamble account,

Unknown:

but for Asia, and working with the global png haircare team as

Unknown:

well out of Singapore. So

Unknown:

that's 11 and a half years of my career have gone, which was

Unknown:

fantastic. And I had so many learnings and develop so many

Unknown:

core skills as well, the experience of working in Asia,

Unknown:

of course, was was fantastic. But I really kind of had that

Unknown:

drive as well to move more into the kind of the creative space.

Unknown:

So I actually went to completely the opposite side, I went from

Unknown:

working in a massive corporate to working from at to working

Unknown:

for SMEs and startups. So I actually worked for two global

Unknown:

open source creative platforms, helping creators essentially,

Unknown:

freelancers, etc, to be able to kind of partner up with the big

Unknown:

global brands on their creative campaigns. And actually, the

Unknown:

latter company that I worked with is where I really started

Unknown:

getting into the gaming space again.

Unknown:

So, you know, gaming was just starting to be talked about a

Unknown:

lot as well, and the industry and the opportunities, and I was

Unknown:

pitching to the likes of EA, and then also Animoca brands, as

Unknown:

well, who are a blockchain based developer and publisher, and

Unknown:

also a venture capitalist company as well. So that was

Unknown:

when I really started to jump into the gaming space and really

Unknown:

realized how much I loved it and very passionate about the

Unknown:

opportunity sets kind of community that surrounded

Unknown:

gaming, as well. And also just the sheer sense of diversity as

Unknown:

well. So it really fascinated me, I met my now boss, when we

Unknown:

were actually starting a discussion on potentially

Unknown:

partnering up at the time between our two companies, he

Unknown:

was just launching campus. And in fact, that ended up then

Unknown:

being a job offer on the table for me to join them. So that was

Unknown:

in November 2019. So I'll be honest, I was very nervous. I

Unknown:

think purely, purely my, the pressure being on myself as

Unknown:

well, because, you know, I really didn't feel overly

Unknown:

confident yet in the gaming space, I'd only sort of starting

Unknown:

to learn the industry for about a year or so. But I was also

Unknown:

super excited. And I think one of the key things for me, and

Unknown:

I've sort of always had instilled in me as well, as you

Unknown:

know, you can achieve anything if you really set your mind to

Unknown:

it and dedicate your time and you work hard. So for me, it was

Unknown:

all about the research element. I was reading so many articles,

Unknown:

watching videos, and really trying to get under the skin of

Unknown:

the gaming and esports space in the region. So yeah, it's it's

Unknown:

been a fantastic opportunity. And yeah, it's kind of brought

Unknown:

me brought me to where I am today, two and a half years

Unknown:

later in my dream job.

Unknown:

Which is so fun. I this is a question that I've been, I think

Unknown:

we've talked a little bit about when I when I initially met you.

Unknown:

But one thing I would love to know about is if you were able

Unknown:

to kind of bring a lot of the consumer insights work into what

Unknown:

you do now, I would imagine that that's an extremely valuable

Unknown:

knowledge base to have when you're trying to build an

Unknown:

audience and build a brand. So what what came over from your

Unknown:

time working in consumer insights? They Yeah, no super

Unknown:

good point. Well, I think from the start having been very

Unknown:

immersed in kind of the data and insights space, I think for me,

Unknown:

it was a crucial element of sort of generating an educational

Unknown:

piece for well one myself but also for for potential clients

Unknown:

and

Unknown:

partners as well, and in this particular space, so data and

Unknown:

insights to me have always been a fundamental part of, you know,

Unknown:

working together with any brands and partners as well, to really

Unknown:

give them the reinsurance of the opportunity within the space.

Unknown:

And also where you know, that there's that level of

Unknown:

authenticity and the right fit, as well. So, you know, trying to

Unknown:

understand the trends in the markets, as I mentioned early,

Unknown:

you know, this region, particularly is extremely

Unknown:

fragmented. So it's really important to understand the

Unknown:

nuances in every single market. And so, for me, that was a huge

Unknown:

learning that I actually took from, from my days working in

Unknown:

the market research world as well, really being able to take

Unknown:

that data and create stories, as well around around the

Unknown:

communities in each of the markets, and really being able

Unknown:

to highlight what those business opportunities might be. And of

Unknown:

course, you know, there's so many different opportunities,

Unknown:

and this is why we're developing such a, an extensive suite of

Unknown:

products as well. So, you know, it's the same with with any form

Unknown:

of kind of creative and advertising, you know, for some

Unknown:

brands, it's going to be a best fit to be focusing sort of on

Unknown:

the on the original content opportunities as well, and how

Unknown:

to reach the community in in other respects, it might be

Unknown:

tournaments, because actually, the brand itself is the right

Unknown:

fit, who they're the audiences that, you know, they have that

Unknown:

natural synergy there. And the messaging as well. So there's so

Unknown:

many different opportunities and routes, but I think everything

Unknown:

comes back to the data and insights and trying to ensure

Unknown:

that we've got sort of an authentic bit between the sort

Unknown:

of the products that we are proposing to the brands, and how

Unknown:

they can best reach that their target audience, as well. So I

Unknown:

would say that is definitely the one thing that has definitely

Unknown:

been instilled into me from the start. So going along with that,

Unknown:

and your experience, as someone who has worked a lot of consumer

Unknown:

insights in the data, how are you able to like, I guess this

Unknown:

is more of an advice question, what advice would you give to

Unknown:

someone who is looking to identify where they can fill in

Unknown:

a gap? Like what questions do you ask yourself?

Unknown:

To be able to say like, Okay, I want to be the one that

Unknown:

organizes tournaments, or I want to be the one that makes content

Unknown:

plays, like, for anyone out there who's working on a team or

Unknown:

is interested in working with, you know, esports, at large?

Unknown:

What questions do you ask yourself to know what you should

Unknown:

be doing?

Unknown:

Very good question. So I think one of the most important and

Unknown:

the and the front of fundamental part really is, who are that

Unknown:

audience? So who are these people that are actually kind of

Unknown:

engaging in this specific space? So, for instance, if it if it's

Unknown:

content series, and we're trying to think about, what are the

Unknown:

platforms that we should be looking at in terms of

Unknown:

distribution? You know, who are the audience base on each of

Unknown:

these platforms as well? And are they going to be the right fit

Unknown:

for this, this content series that we're actually planning to

Unknown:

develop?

Unknown:

And then off the back of that? Who are the appropriate talents

Unknown:

that we then want to bring into that content series as well? So

Unknown:

it's very much trying to gain an understanding initially of like,

Unknown:

who are those people that we're trying to reach? Where can we

Unknown:

best find them? So on which platforms? Or if it's, if it's

Unknown:

an offline events, you know, from a location perspective,

Unknown:

what's the kind of footfall? Who are the types of, you know, sort

Unknown:

of shoppers or consumers who are going to be attending in those

Unknown:

spaces? as well? Or? And then And then also, like, how do we

Unknown:

design a program that is going to best fit for that audience.

Unknown:

And also then for for the brands, or partners that we're

Unknown:

going to be involving, but everything really first starts

Unknown:

with the audience and who we're trying to reach? And on what

Unknown:

platforms that we can actually best reach them overall. And

Unknown:

then the next part is about who do we, you know, what do we want

Unknown:

to feature in that program? Who do we want to integrate? Who is

Unknown:

then going to appeal to that audience? And who is also then

Unknown:

an authentic fit with with that brand partner that we're

Unknown:

bringing in, as well. So there's many different elements that we

Unknown:

kind of have to factor in into that understanding.

Unknown:

And, yeah, there's, I'd say that one of the most challenging

Unknown:

things still to date is sort of centralized research. resources.

Unknown:

I think that's still one of the biggest challenges for the

Unknown:

gaming and the esports industry as a whole. You know, we've

Unknown:

there's so many different avenues and routes and sources

Unknown:

that you can tap into. So I still very much find that trying

Unknown:

to build out a story can be extremely time consuming and

Unknown:

quite a challenge. There's a lot of different sources that you

Unknown:

can go to but having said that, I'm noticing that there's still

Unknown:

a wealth of information that is still starting to build out

Unknown:

there. You know, we've got the lights of Newzoo

Unknown:

I have a great source of kind of top line data for the gaming and

Unknown:

esports space. And they really do start to drill down into

Unknown:

specific regions and markets in Asia as well, which is

Unknown:

fantastic. Also the likes of YouGov, they actually created a

Unknown:

fantastic white paper thought leadership piece last year,

Unknown:

which was fantastic, all about sort of profiling gamers and the

Unknown:

platforms that they that they like to watch and consume

Unknown:

esports all the way through to kind of the profile of who these

Unknown:

fans are, as well. So there was a huge amount of insight in

Unknown:

that, but we're definitely having to still cherry pick a

Unknown:

lot from from various different sources to really get to the

Unknown:

crux of, you know, what it what does this kind of industry look

Unknown:

like and and how can we best activate and, and execute within

Unknown:

that as well. And, and also, of course, then bringing in the

Unknown:

brand partners and making sure that there's that level of

Unknown:

authenticity, too.

Unknown:

So for us, as I mentioned earlier, that, you know,

Unknown:

conducting our community surveys has been really important, and

Unknown:

also really interesting. So I mentioned earlier, some of those

Unknown:

learnings that we also understood by playing around

Unknown:

were a huge amount of the community were really interested

Unknown:

in crypto. But obviously, they still felt they have learned a

Unknown:

lot and there was a lot of education needed. So you know,

Unknown:

that's a learning we can take when we're going to go and have

Unknown:

to chat to potential crypto partners and sponsors as well.

Unknown:

And, you know, let them know that obviously, as a

Unknown:

foundational element, if you want to try and really engage

Unknown:

with this audience, and connect with them, we've got to think

Unknown:

about how can we start with it with an educational focus in a,

Unknown:

in a fun way, we know the community want to learn? How can

Unknown:

we achieve that?

Unknown:

So yeah, there's that the community surveys have

Unknown:

definitely been invaluable to us to understand what does our

Unknown:

community really want? What do they look for, you know, if I'm

Unknown:

going to be thinking about who am I going to partner with from

Unknown:

a music label, or artists perspective, you know, who do

Unknown:

these community community members resonate with? Like,

Unknown:

who's important to them? You know, we, again, being

Unknown:

fragmented markets, we can't just assume that we can develop

Unknown:

one partnership that will be a fit all for the whole region,

Unknown:

you know, every market is different. So understanding

Unknown:

those local market nuances, understanding our community as

Unknown:

well is really important.

Unknown:

That makes so much sense. And I so I formerly worked as in a

Unknown:

data analytics position. And yes, the lack of data for me is,

Unknown:

is one of the toughest parts about esports. Like, there's

Unknown:

nothing to run a

Unknown:

lot of hours of Googling and searching the net, for, you

Unknown:

know, all sorts of different insights to try and build

Unknown:

together the stories and that, you know, what, that so much out

Unknown:

there, there is so much out there, but But I think, you

Unknown:

know, there's still a long way to go before we can we can

Unknown:

really kind of, you know, find a sort of sense, more centralized

Unknown:

sources, ultimately to really help us kind of tell those,

Unknown:

those stories as effectively as possible. Yeah, Hugo has been in

Unknown:

news, you have both been very helpful, but I'm definitely

Unknown:

looking forward to, because they put out really great insights,

Unknown:

right. But I want like the back end stuff, you know, I want the

Unknown:

data.

Unknown:

In English industry, we're just not at a point in the industry

Unknown:

where those datasets and everyone who's ever been in data

Unknown:

knows that the hardest part about being a data is getting

Unknown:

the dataset together. Like this is not a novel problem. And by

Unknown:

any means. It's just that the fact that I mean, if you compare

Unknown:

to like so many of like grocery industry, there's like 100 plus

Unknown:

years worth of stuff you can look at. And it's just it's just

Unknown:

different. This is such a young industry. So there's time but

Unknown:

yeah, definitely creating building those data sets. And

Unknown:

like, oh, there's no Bureau of Labor Statistics for esports.

Unknown:

Not, not at all. No, no, yes, it is. It is a dream of mine to get

Unknown:

there someday. But I totally understand that theme. I'm Jen,

Unknown:

you've just given me so much to think about, which has been so

Unknown:

great. I'm going to quickly summarize some of the points

Unknown:

that we talked about. And then we'll get into our last section

Unknown:

here. So we started with online services and influencers, games

Unknown:

and tournaments, even online generate lots of UGC that helped

Unknown:

further build the brand. Focus still online, it doesn't even

Unknown:

have to necessarily be in real life, you can still have these

Unknown:

events. And you can have that kind of similar engagement that

Unknown:

creates all that content to then be able to further engage with

Unknown:

fans. It's kind of a self feeding cycle. We talked or

Unknown:

eventually a bit about the Nescafe partnership, and you

Unknown:

mentioned Gillette as as well. These are both really unique I

Unknown:

thought I think that the enough cafe, the opportunity to go buy

Unknown:

something in real life and then enter into that that raffle that

Unknown:

opportunity to go play with with professional esports players is

Unknown:

a really cool bridge between real life and online worlds.

Unknown:

Says really, really activation

Unknown:

They're also mentioned that as we get into more real life

Unknown:

events you're looking into do, you're looking to do hyperlocal

Unknown:

tournaments, that the Asian market at large is really

Unknown:

fragmented. So it's going to be different approaches in

Unknown:

different areas, taking each market and isolation is really

Unknown:

important for deciding what to execute on.

Unknown:

And we then talked about that in relationship to platforms. And I

Unknown:

know that you had mentioned that Facebook and YouTube are big

Unknown:

platforms in the region, although in different places,

Unknown:

one is bigger than the other. And then in other regions,

Unknown:

there's other completely different third parties that are

Unknown:

bigger than both of those. So it's, it's really split up in

Unknown:

that way. Whereas I definitely think that we are very used to a

Unknown:

twitch dominated environment in North America, and what you do

Unknown:

and and first, you're also looking towards the future

Unknown:

towards the metaverse fully invested into web three, because

Unknown:

you think that the surveys that you stated were so cool that

Unknown:

there's so much interest in learning with a space, but that

Unknown:

education is going to be a key element in getting any

Unknown:

partnerships any collaborations off the ground. People want to

Unknown:

learn about crypto and planner and but there's still a huge gap

Unknown:

and how to do that from both a b2c and b2b level. So it's gonna

Unknown:

take a little bit for that. However, you mentioned that you

Unknown:

already have a guild that is focused on Plan earned on

Unknown:

blockchain, Blockchain based teams, and that they have been

Unknown:

able to host events, have tournaments and do a lot of the

Unknown:

things that we think of as traditional esports. In games

Unknown:

that are not blockchain based, which is so cool. When it comes

Unknown:

to your journey on getting into gaming and esports. You give

Unknown:

really good advice and saying, read as much as you can put your

Unknown:

mind into it as much as you can. And don't be afraid to get

Unknown:

started without the deepest knowledge base. So you're

Unknown:

passionate about it, get out there. Just put your mind to it

Unknown:

and work a little bit harder, maybe at the beginning to build

Unknown:

yourself up. But you don't need to know everything going in

Unknown:

there's there's definitely an on the job element to any training.

Unknown:

And then we talked a lot about you coming from the market

Unknown:

research world,

Unknown:

taking different business opportunities into different

Unknown:

markets. And I the one question I asked you is kind of what do

Unknown:

you think about when you're creating a new opportunity,

Unknown:

because you'd mentioned that brands have different fits for

Unknown:

what they should be doing. So to figure out what you should be

Unknown:

doing with an esports. First think about the audience, then

Unknown:

try to identify the platforms that audiences on, then think

Unknown:

about the talent that's going to have not only the best content

Unknown:

fit, but also an authentic feeling fit, which is that word

Unknown:

that the esports industry loves to use.

Unknown:

And then and then after that, try to figure out what you're

Unknown:

actually going to do once you have all those steps in place.

Unknown:

And we talked about how the biggest one of the biggest

Unknown:

challenges to that is having centralized data and resources.

Unknown:

So we need more data out there listening who wants to build a

Unknown:

giant data brand or build the Bureau of Labor Statistics board

Unknown:

gaming these call me, I gotta

Unknown:

go both of us.

Unknown:

Um, so Jen, so much talk about so much to think about, the

Unknown:

thing that I love to end with in every episode is what I like to

Unknown:

call the moment of reflection, which is the chance for you to

Unknown:

look back on your career, how you got to where you are. And I

Unknown:

like to ask, what is one thing you would like to tell your

Unknown:

younger self while getting into the gaming industry and being

Unknown:

successful?

Unknown:

I love this question. I love I've loved listening to this on

Unknown:

every episode of your podcast, I always find it so fascinating,

Unknown:

you know, everyone's got very sort of different backgrounds,

Unknown:

based in different locations, as well. So I always find it really

Unknown:

interesting.

Unknown:

For me, I would say it's dates back to sort of my teen years,

Unknown:

really, where, you know, and I alluded to this earlier as well,

Unknown:

and moving into the gaming space, but my dad kind of

Unknown:

instilled into me, you know, really need to work hard to get

Unknown:

where you want to be, and to reap the rewards. So even at a

Unknown:

young age, you know, if I wanted to be able to do something,

Unknown:

myself, rather than just sort of having something handed to me, I

Unknown:

really had to dedicate all my energy time and effort to be

Unknown:

able to, you know, maybe it was working at a bakery when I was

Unknown:

14 If I wanted to go to the movies with my friends, you

Unknown:

know, as simple as that, but like, you know, working hard to

Unknown:

but then be able to reap the rewards and enjoy it. And this

Unknown:

very much has kind of been instilled in me throughout my my

Unknown:

career as well.

Unknown:

And I think it's been crucially important as well, like my

Unknown:

career path has obviously not been an obvious one, you know,

Unknown:

starting off in market research and I never even thought about

Unknown:

working in the gaming industry, you know, it didn't even cross

Unknown:

my mind. And, you know, this, the path that I've taken the

Unknown:

leap of faith that I took to move to Asia, which is then

Unknown:

turned into my home for the last 14 years.

Unknown:

You know, and taking the big leap from a corporate to to

Unknown:

small, medium sized startups as well. So, you know, there's

Unknown:

there's so many different leaps of faith that I've sort of taken

Unknown:

along the route. So I think I would definitely tell myself

Unknown:

younger self don't be afraid to do that. You know that. Really,

Unknown:

there is nothing to lose. You've got nothing to lose, you know,

Unknown:

only to gain

Unknown:

From experience, every role is a learning experience. So, you

Unknown:

know, take out of it, everything that you can soak up all of that

Unknown:

information in the skill sets, you know,

Unknown:

that you can from every single role, which will then better you

Unknown:

for the next role that you're going to take on, as well. And,

Unknown:

you know, it might not be an obvious path at the time, but

Unknown:

somehow, you know, with with hard work, dedication, a little

Unknown:

bit of faith, I think, you know, you can end up landing your

Unknown:

dream job. And essentially, I have to say that that's where I

Unknown:

feel I am today, I still look back and wonder how on earth I

Unknown:

got here, but you know, I'm loving every minute of it. It

Unknown:

was a hard way through COVID Having just started the job

Unknown:

role, but yeah, I'm, uh, I'm seeing a lot of great things

Unknown:

ahead. And yeah, just excited to see where things are really

Unknown:

going to start shaping further in the gaming and esports space.

Unknown:

So yeah, so fun. So what I heard from that was that he up, work

Unknown:

hard and take risks. Yes.

Unknown:

I don't live in regrets. I like it. Thank you. So, so much for

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coming on. This has been so much fun for me. I mean, first is

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just fascinating. And what you're doing is fascinating,

Unknown:

totally new and fun approach to games. And the focus on finance

Unknown:

is really clear. And I hope that more companies start to do that

Unknown:

more often. Um, where can people find you follow you follow Him

Unknown:

first, learn more about all the things? Absolutely, yes, please

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do. So you can find me on LinkedIn as Jenny Hall. So I'm

Unknown:

at first head of strategic partnerships. So that's probably

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the easiest way to reach me directly. I don't tend to use my

Unknown:

kind of social media quite so much for the kind of business

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side of things I take space seem to spend most of my life on it

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to be honest, just from our Creator and team's perspective,

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like I'll use it for my benefit.

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And then, on top of that, you can follow up first on LinkedIn

Unknown:

as well for all the latest updates on our teams and

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talents, new product developments, etc. So yeah, we'd

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love for you to follow us and please reach out to me if you

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have any questions at all, or you just want to thrash outs and

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some thoughts on the gaming and esports space as well. So yeah,

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I'm always here.

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So fun. For all the listeners out there. Be sure to leave

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those five star ratings and reviews. Check out other

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holodeck media podcasts, including meta business and

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business esports. I'm on Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn

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which I also occasionally use or don't use for personal and

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business purposes. It's all mixed up at Lindsay poss and you

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can catch me live on Wednesday afternoons. Now we have a new

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time on the business of esports live after show. We'll see you

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next week. Thanks for joining us here on meta woman. Make sure to

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subscribe to this podcast everywhere you get your

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podcasts, leave a five star review and tell your friends,

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family and colleagues all about us. Also, make sure to follow

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metta TV on all socials to get more of the best Metaverse

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content anywhere. Tune in every week for another episode of

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About the Podcast

Seeking Alpha
Your sherpas in the wild worlds of crypto and dating
Join two women in their journeys through their careers, dating, and navigating emerging technology. We're here to learn together, be open about our lives (including the struggles and successes), have fun, and give a platform to some of the most interesting voices around the industry.
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