Episode 19

full
Published on:

12th Apr 2022

19. The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

Who doesn't love a good influencer? This week, Marketing and Business Development Consultant Becky Taylor joins me to talk influencer marketing strategy, why small networks are important for brands, and why word of mouth marketing works. We also discuss the building of the Metaverse, and how it means creating a full society, from economies to languages to city planning. Come for the influencer talk, stay for the Metaverse lessons.

Transcript
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Welcome to the meadow woman podcast. We address the

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issues, opportunities and challenges facing women in the

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development of the metaverse the biggest revolution since the

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internet itself. Every week we bring you conversations with top

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female talent and business executives operating in the

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gaming and crypto industries. Here's your host, Lindsay, the

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bus pass.

Lindsay Poss:

The metal woman podcast starts now. Hello,

Lindsay Poss:

everyone, and welcome to the metal woman podcast part of the

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holodeck media Podcast Network. I'm your host, Lindsay DeVos.

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Past and from struggle to success. Are you at all

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returning listeners, thank you so much for supporting the show.

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I can't tell you how much your messages mean to me. But just

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you know, one lady out here doing her best in the world. And

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for all of our new listeners. Welcome. I hope you enjoy. I

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have such wonderful guests this week. This is someone who I just

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recently got to know and I just, I've just had so much fun having

Lindsay Poss:

conversations with this person. So great. I have Becky Taylor

Lindsay Poss:

marketing and business development consultant. Becky,

Lindsay Poss:

welcome to the show that used to going on. Thank you. For those

Lindsay Poss:

of you who don't know, I was off the late to our recording. And

Lindsay Poss:

Becky was incredibly patient with me. So thank you for that.

Lindsay Poss:

If you could just give the audience a background a little

Lindsay Poss:

bit about yourself. You know, back to your story. Give me the

Lindsay Poss:

good stuff. Yeah.

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I'll try to make it short because it's never ending.

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No, I mean, like the thing is, like, that's always interesting,

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and I tried to tell people is yes, I've spent the last 10

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years, more than 10 years at this point in video games,

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working on on mostly marketing, business development, influencer

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marketing, kind of the whole gambit. But before I joined the

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game industry, I was actually working in a nonprofit with at

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risk youth, primarily as a case manager. And I got my start in

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marketing by helping that nonprofit. And you know, at that

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time, I was going to college, I was originally going to school

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for computer science and criminal justice. So pretty much

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computer forensics. And I ended up shifting and actually getting

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my Bachelors of Science in communications media with a

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concentration in interactive media, which sounds long, but

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it's just web development. It's Front End Web Development, and

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like creating apps and things like that. In order to graduate,

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I had to do an unpaid internship for six months full time, and

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pay the school for credits. So I applied to over 200 Game

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Studios, and I liked telling that story for the sole fact of

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I of course, did not get into a single one. Because that's when

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I learned that unpaid internships are illegal in a lot

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of states. Not Massachusetts back then, apparently. So you

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know, I applied everywhere, like begging everywhere to give me a

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chance, like doing like creating apps and stuff with games. And

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this little company reached out to me, I had never heard of

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them. They needed someone for marketing, that knew like how to

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create websites and do Front End Web Development, because they

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were making a Facebook game. And it was the first 3d game on

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Facebook. So that sounded really cool. They were using Unity. And

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I was like, okay, then this is back like 1213 years ago. Now. I

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had never heard of unity back then. I also had never heard of

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this company, which was Tencent. Um, because back then 13 years

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ago. Yeah, I mean, no one knew. And yes, pure luck that I ended

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up at a company that is now pretty much the biggest gaming

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thing because they own you know, they own majority stake, or all

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of Epic Games at this point. You know, they own Riot Games, tons

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of different game studios or majority stake in game studios.

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So that was pretty much my start was kind of creating this

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Facebook game with them called robot rising. It was a super fun

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game. And I primarily back then was doing a whole mix of things

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and learning. And the reason I tell this story is because I

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have never taken a class in marketing. And I've been doing

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it very successfully, and learning on my own researching

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things like that. And so you know, I after that, because they

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ended up shutting down the Boston studio, a lot of game

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studios end up leaving the Boston area. There's still not a

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lot, there's a bunch of Indies out there. And so after that, I

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went to Amazon as kind of a product manager like marketing

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manager creating promotions, left Amazon work, I ended up

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getting into consulting at that point. I realized at that point

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that I like working on a bunch of different things. So I was

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doing marketing, community management, influencer marketing

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business development, I was helping companies such as reboot

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with reboot developer conference in Croatia. So it was actually

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like helping get speakers over there and everything and I was

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flying out to Croatia twice a year and work with them, I also

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helped create a product called Game site, which a lot of, you

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know, influencers know, as it's in depth Twitch and YouTube

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analytics and helping them get brand deals with different

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companies such as Wizards of the Coast, different things like

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that. So I was one of their prime people doing the marketing

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plus also the business development reaching out to

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influencers, things like that. After that, I went and worked at

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Riot Games, you know, I created the company, you know, just a

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little little someplace, you know, radar, you know, whatever

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small startup, yeah, totally with, like 2000 employees just

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in LA alone. But, you know, I helped create the partnership

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program that is still used today with League of Legends and all

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their other games now that they have multiple games. And then,

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you know, ended up working at some esports groups, such as

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FaZe Clan, luminosity, gaming. And most recently, I worked with

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a geometric 3d Like model company called FISMA, on their

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consumer product called things. So yeah, that's, that's pretty

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much it. I'm still consulting. But now I'm going back in

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getting my MBA, which we can talk about later on. But yeah,

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it's it's been a lot of different things.

Lindsay Poss:

That's so funny that you talk about that with

Lindsay Poss:

marketing, because I actually had, I had a similar career

Lindsay Poss:

experience, where I graduated with a degree in Public Policy

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and Management, a lot of data analytics stuff, went to my

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first job where I was at a think tank, producing a lot of

Lindsay Poss:

economic analysis, and wound up being their marketing person,

Lindsay Poss:

never having had an interest in marketing. And it's sort of

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similar in that when you find someone who understands the

Lindsay Poss:

product, and is willing to create material and help explain

Lindsay Poss:

that product. You wind up in marketing. Yeah. Want to or not?

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Exactly. I mean, that's the key thing. I tell students,

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I used to do a lot of talks at different colleges, such as

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Northeastern WPI. And I always tell them, if you want to get

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into marketing, you don't necessarily need a degree in

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marketing, what you need is the ability to understand analytics

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and turn that analytics into a story and tell a story about

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your brand and your product. And you need to enjoy talking to

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people, which obviously, I hope if we're on a podcast together,

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we both like talking to people. And I think that the analytics

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that like, you know, getting in there and talking to people

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networking really helps.

Lindsay Poss:

When I think when you're passionate about product,

Lindsay Poss:

organization and mission, whatever, or if you just

Lindsay Poss:

understand it really well, the marketing comes a lot easier to

Lindsay Poss:

sort of, in the gaming industry, I have a good sort of kind of

Lindsay Poss:

bridge between worlds thing going where I'm not necessarily

Lindsay Poss:

a hardcore gamer, but I understand the gaming industry

Lindsay Poss:

in that I understand, you know, who aren't gamers and people who

Lindsay Poss:

are really into pop culture and sports and that kind of stuck

Lindsay Poss:

really well, because I I have a foot in both. And I'd like to

Lindsay Poss:

try to use that. Give us your perspective.

Unknown:

Well, I mean, it helps creating those like target

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audiences. And like defining because, you know, you might

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have a product that has multiple different use cases. And so

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being able to step into the shoes of different kind of

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cultures or things like you know, individuals that really

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helps

Lindsay Poss:

when speaking of creating target audiences. One

Lindsay Poss:

thing that we've seen a lot of lately is using influencer

Lindsay Poss:

marketing for that, and I know that we've talked previously

Lindsay Poss:

about how your work and influencer marketing the good,

Lindsay Poss:

the bad, the ugly, what you might like or dislike about it,

Lindsay Poss:

but as you know, you've been in the marketing side of things for

Lindsay Poss:

a while. And I think it's I think it is actually important

Lindsay Poss:

to know that you kind of developed into it rather than

Lindsay Poss:

taking classes and jumping into it with a purpose. Because I do

Lindsay Poss:

think that that gives you just a different perspective than

Lindsay Poss:

someone who is inherently interested in advertising and

Lindsay Poss:

jumps in that way. But what have used themed and how influencer

Lindsay Poss:

marketing has helped sell a brand or sell a game or what

Lindsay Poss:

have you like in the gaming industry? Have you seen it

Lindsay Poss:

change or the things that you like and don't like about it?

Lindsay Poss:

Love to hear some of your experience that that end of

Lindsay Poss:

things?

Unknown:

Yeah, no influencer marketing is one of those things

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that is so vital to a brand However, at the same time, it

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can break your brand. And I think a lot of people, you know,

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by the time this podcast comes out, it might not be as relevant

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but artists and builds recently, you know, to kind of just inform

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people real quick, they were doing. They are known as a PC

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company that builds computers, they always stream the builds of

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computers. So influencers or you know, they give out these

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computers, a lot of times they're giveaways and they're

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building these computers on stream so it's kind of like a

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mix of influencer marketing with their own brand marketing and

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recent Lately, they were doing a giveaway and the CEO mid like

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stream on live, just start changing the rules of the

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giveaway, because he didn't want to give computers to smaller

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influencers. Yeah, which obviously, um, the thing that

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people need to understand about influencers is you have like

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different types, you have large influencers, like, you know, the

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PewDiePie of the world, or, you know, any like lyric, things

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like that, you have these big ones, that, you know, their,

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their chats moving so fast, you can see what's happening, but

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they have so many views, and so many people watching them, and

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then you have smaller ones. Now, the smaller ones, I tend to view

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is ones that may not necessarily drive a ton of conversions.

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However, they have that dedicated core group that will

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definitely convert and They network with a bunch of other

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influencers. So those small influencers, they tend to work

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together, and you know, tend to communicate tend to share.

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They're the ones who like really kind of get the conversation

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going about products. And so, you know, obviously these

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influencers spoke up about what was going on. It went viral in

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obviously a not so good way. And needless to say, as of this

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week, that company no longer exists.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, wow, can happen so fast. Yeah,

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it was literally like a course of a couple days. Now,

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obviously, the whole company closing down was not just

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because of the influence or stuff, it was also because of

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tax evasion things, supposedly,

Lindsay Poss:

yeah. I'm glad to hear that because it would be a

Lindsay Poss:

little side if you could go destroy it quickly.

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Yeah. But you know, we have seen this many times before

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where influencer marketing went bad. And you know, it really

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hurt a brand. And we've had companies rebrand, recreate

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things like that, you know, obviously, companies like Ryan

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Ubisoft had have had their fair fair share of dramas and things.

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So like, that's something really to keep in mind that is tough

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when it comes to it. And you know, the other thing that I

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struggle with, and then I'll get into all the positives. The

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other thing I struggle with is, you know, we have gotten to a

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point where influencer marketing, every single company

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wants these influencers. So they're in high demand. And

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they're going after, like, you know, a lot of the big ones. So

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you look at, you know, say esports, vlogger, you know,

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lifestyle bloggers, things like that. And they're charging,

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like, you know, 1000s, and I've definitely been there where I'm

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like, hey, I want 15 minutes up your time to talk about a brand.

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And hey, it's $42,000. And I'm like, I am in the wrong side of

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this business. Yeah, it kills me, kills me inside when I'm

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like, Oh, hey, can you make a Facebook post? And that cost me

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six grand? Yeah, yeah. And like, don't get me wrong, these

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influencers work very, very

Lindsay Poss:

hard. It's going to ask to just as a quick aside,

Lindsay Poss:

is what percentage are at that high of a level? Because I would

Lindsay Poss:

imagine it's kind of a small, like we're talking about? Not

Lindsay Poss:

necessarily like, I mean, you mentioned PD pi would, I

Lindsay Poss:

wouldn't know how a speedy pi charges that I imagined, it's,

Lindsay Poss:

you know, we're talking about kind of top 100 to top 1000,

Lindsay Poss:

right, when we're talking about these rates, or even

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I say like, mid to like the mid to top level. So some of

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those, like mid level still very expensive. It kind of depends on

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like, if the person has a manager or not, because there's

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still definitely plenty of, you know, midsize influencers who

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are doing this all on their own. If they have a management

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company, the management company gets like, you know, a certain

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percentage and like, and they tend to kind of streamline what

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the prices are. And so which is good in some ways, because then

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I can automatically guess, okay, hey, this person at this

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company, I know that they're going to cost this amount, you

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know, I can guess like, Hey, okay, it's gonna cost you know,

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$1,000 per YouTube video, even though they're on the smaller

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side, like, bam, done. Got it. Like, it is a really good way to

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help, you know, gauge what my budget should be. With the

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smaller influencers. It's good and bad, like this is this is

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the push in the take is, you know, people who don't have

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managers might not be pricing themselves correctly, in the

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sense that, you know, they might I might have an influencer

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sometimes where or this has happened plenty of times where I

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have an influencer that, you know, I give one influencer, say

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$1,000 for a video, I find another influencer of the same

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exact size and they're like, oh, yeah, you can give me like 250

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bucks. And I'm like, No, man. Exactly. And I have like, sigh

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No, like, I have definitely like gone to influencers and been

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like, Hey, man, like, you should probably charge like 500 You

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know, like for your level and like the average and stuff and

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like have helped them a little bit. Because I've worked both

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sides, you know, I've worked where I'm working at a game

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studio, and I obviously want to save money and, you know, make

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my ROI is better. But then I've also worked on the other side

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where I'm representing influencers, and I'm helping

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them, you know, get these brand deals. So I've worked both sides

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of the table. And so you know, that experience has really

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helped me gauge but also like, I don't want these influencers,

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like a lot of them burn out really quickly. There's a lot of

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pressure there. Some of them, it's a hobby, some of them, this

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is their full time job. So you know, I like to obviously help

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them. And so to like, kind of streamline into like the next

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part of your question of like, you know, there's been this big

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shift in like brands heavily, heavily using them, you know,

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something I did a talk years ago at GDC. It's actually online if

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you search my name GDC conference. Yeah, absolutely.

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Where I talked about using influencer marketing for your

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Indie Game, and why it's so important. And you know, one of

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the biggest things was back then, and this is like, five

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years ago now, if not more, you know, Destructoid had announced

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that over 60, I think it was like, over 60% of their audience

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uses ad blockers. And I can only imagine that's even more now.

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You know, companies like Twitch and YouTube are heavily trying

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to get around ad blockers, they're trying to like,

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integrate in the video. So it doesn't, you know, get blocked

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things like that. And so, one of the reasons why influencer

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marketing works so well is because you technically couldn't

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block it, unless you just didn't watch that influencer. So, you

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know, that was something that was really important. But also

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like influencer, marketing just comes in. Like, it's almost like

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a natural form of marketing in the sense that, you know, Gen Z

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and millennials, you know, we look at billboards, and we kind

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of tune them out. We grew up with, like, our generation,

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millennials grew up watching commercials on TV that you

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couldn't skip.

Lindsay Poss:

But you know, the production of commercial breaks,

Lindsay Poss:

I'd like to point out, right, it

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was like, two minutes, 30 seconds, get all your stuff

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done, get your popcorn ready, like run back, you know, or,

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like, flip the channel and hope that you remember to flip back

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in time. You know? Exactly. But you know, the, so we've kind of

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become just numb to these things. But also, those

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billboards, like whether their ads online or not, don't really

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tell a story. The current generations that are buying, say

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these games or products, they want to be more informed. They

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want to know about the product before they buy it, you know,

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with the recession and everything, you know, people are

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holding on to their money a little bit tighter. We've been

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in a recession for like, yeah, since like, 2008 At this point,

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so forever, like my entire adult life. And so, you know, it's

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really kind of one of those things where people want to be

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educated, and you know, they view influencers is almost a

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friend, in the sense that, you know, word of mouth marketing

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works really well, just in the same way that you'd listen to a

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friend say, like, hey, this cleaning product really worked

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for me. If an influencer if like a person is watching, like an

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influencer, having cleaning was probably a bad example. You're

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not gonna see, I mean, maybe on Instagram, you're watching

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Instagram, or, like clean or something, but I

Lindsay Poss:

watched the talk a lot. I'm not gonna lie.

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Tick tock, like, oh my god,

Lindsay Poss:

I actually watch a lot of cleaning videos and, and

Lindsay Poss:

have bought a lot of cleaning products as a result. A great

Lindsay Poss:

examples.

Unknown:

I mean, that's the thing that was like, You're

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gonna watch this person, you want to see it in action. Like,

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you don't want to see a photoshopped billboard? That is

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like, Oh, here's my dirty sink. And then now it's magically

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clean. And it's like, yeah, okay, that I'm gonna call BS on

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that one. Like, that's two different bathtubs. Like

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doesn't, it isn't real to us. And because we've had so much

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fake advertising, like, pushed into our lives, and so, you

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know, having these influencers it's much more natural, but that

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kind of goes back to where things can go heavily wrong. I

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personally, you know, tell my influencers when I'm working

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with games is like, Hey, be honest about our game. I'd

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rather you be honest and say what you like and what you don't

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like because honestly, that's going to sell our game better.

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And I just tell them like hey, if you hit like a major bug, can

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you like rather than rage quitting on stream? Can you

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like, email me? That would be great. Like, I'll help you out.

Unknown:

But you know, I tell people to be honest, and a lot of

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companies I've Round. Apparently, do not they say

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like, you can only say positive things on stream, you can only

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say positive things on your video and we have to approve the

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video first. Which I mean, if you're in paid fair game, that's

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understandable in the sense of like, okay, hey, I'm paying you

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$4,000 To create an ad. It's literally an ad, FTC

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regulations, they're supposed to put that it's an ad, and things

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like that. But you know, it's I see a lot of companies making

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it. So it's only positive only. And I'd rather hear that go. I'd

Unknown:

rather it just doesn't convert, you know.

Lindsay Poss:

Kind of follow up question to that. Because one of

Lindsay Poss:

the themes that's come up and you you did talk in in depth

Lindsay Poss:

about it. But is this idea that that consumers want to be

Lindsay Poss:

informed? And you gave some reasons for that, especially,

Lindsay Poss:

you know, the recession of older millennials? I totally get that.

Lindsay Poss:

But I do think that there's, I mean, social media growth has

Lindsay Poss:

obviously changed the way we interact in so many ways. But

Lindsay Poss:

why do you think there is an interest in being informed

Lindsay Poss:

because you're paying off the first person I've explored that

Lindsay Poss:

with and I've never thought about? Okay, so we do have this

Lindsay Poss:

shift where people want more information? Why?

Unknown:

Yeah, no, I have, like, you know, I have a lot of good

Unknown:

theories on that. You know, if I think we're about the same age,

Unknown:

so you probably understand where, you know, when I was in

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middle school and stuff, if I need to write a research

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project, I had to go to the library, I had to find all the

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books. I knew the Dewey Decimal System, I used to have to pull

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out the little card system, find the cards, like pull it out, go

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find the book and everything. I don't think anyone knows what

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I'm talking about if they're younger than 20, or younger than

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30.

Lindsay Poss:

videos of kids asking why we call it hanging up

Lindsay Poss:

a phone? Oh, yeah. Oh, man, or what burning a CD is and like,

Lindsay Poss:

Oh, my heart.

Unknown:

I actually did have someone once asked me how I was

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holding a CD that I just burned. Because when it be very hot.

Unknown:

Like yeah, be warm. But it's not on fire. Yeah, literally

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burning. Yeah. And so like our generation very and older, very

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limited in the knowledge that was being fed to us. Very

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limited. Like, if we wanted information about something, we

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had to go look up that information, or get magazines in

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the mail that would like, you know, we read and like, learn

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and stuff, but Argent, the, you know, our generation, the

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younger side of millennials and the Gen Z, they're being fed

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information. 24/7. And it's it's information overload. You know,

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they're getting fed misinformation, and regular

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information, real information, like all over the whole gambit.

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And so it's almost like, I wouldn't say necessarily that

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they want to be more informed, but they want to find real

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information. Um, because yeah, sure, I can go to a website and

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read reviews, or I can go to Amazon read reviews. But you

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know, a lot of Amazon reviews we're finding are fake, like

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they are they give free product and it doesn't necessarily say

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people got free product. And obviously FTC star tried in the

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past five years, has tried to really update their game in the

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sense of rules for influencer marketing rules for blogs or

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videos or even promoted tweets. But, you know, this is something

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I even was thinking about earlier today. Like they've

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tried to make a couple of examples of game studios and

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find them. I think EA maybe like Warner Brothers I think were

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ones who got fined in the past, but there's so many that just

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like, it isn't enough in the sense that I have not found

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studios to be really scared of like, hey, the FTC is gonna come

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find us. Yeah,

Lindsay Poss:

I get that they might be the cost of doing

Lindsay Poss:

business to pay an exact fine worth pennies to that Yeah,

Unknown:

yeah. And so you know, it just it's really tougher, you

Unknown:

know, Gen Z to find what's real and what's fake and so they're

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constantly looking for that natural like interaction and

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that's part of why you know going back to I always tell

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influencers tell people what you don't like you know, it and just

Unknown:

be honest with it, though, don't like rage quit and cause drama,

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please. But you know, in the sense of like, hey, I really

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enjoy like the story and the art. I'm not necessarily a fan

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of this gameplay, etc. Or, hey, you know, this game is really

Unknown:

good, but I think they should update this And, you know, we

Unknown:

might go update that. But you know, it's it's just one of

Unknown:

those things with Gen Z and millennials that, you know, we

Unknown:

trust word of mouth marketing so much more. And I think it's

Unknown:

because of just that information overload.

Lindsay Poss:

That's it's that is it good that I haven't

Lindsay Poss:

thought about that before. I mean, I've thought about it not

Lindsay Poss:

in the context, I've thought about the information overload,

Lindsay Poss:

but not in the context of influencer marketing. And I feel

Lindsay Poss:

like one of the biggest differences is, advertising also

Lindsay Poss:

used to be when you were saying that I was thinking this

Lindsay Poss:

advertising also used to be so passive, you could slip by it or

Lindsay Poss:

not read the billboard or whatever it was. And now it's

Lindsay Poss:

like, it's actively it is not possibly in your face, like,

Lindsay Poss:

like, you can't really go through a day without even like

Lindsay Poss:

SMS marketing. I mean, you can't, there's there's no way of

Lindsay Poss:

interacting with the online world without being without

Lindsay Poss:

having advertisements of you. And it's not necessarily always

Lindsay Poss:

like a full frontal assault by any means. But it's also not as

Lindsay Poss:

easy as it is to not read a billboard. It's some type of in

Lindsay Poss:

between space where you're having to think about a lot of

Lindsay Poss:

things and look at a lot of products and ideas all the time.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah. So you wonder why when you have that one person who's kind

Lindsay Poss:

of your your Sherpa? Yeah, trust him.

Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I would love to go to a website. At some

Unknown:

point, even with the ad blockers I use, I would love to go to a

Unknown:

website and not have it pop up telling me if I sign up for

Unknown:

emails, and then sign up for texts as well that I get 10%

Unknown:

off. Like, and I signed up for one the other day, I nearly I

Unknown:

nearly like, I want to report them to the FTC almost because I

Unknown:

signed up for one the other day, and then within the course of

Unknown:

three hours, they texted me 10 times.

Lindsay Poss:

Oh, that is how not to do it.

Unknown:

Exactly. So it's just like, it's one of those things

Unknown:

where we're just constantly, it shoved in your face. And so, you

Unknown:

know, obviously advertising is never gonna go away. Like we

Unknown:

need to remember that is like, yeah, obviously, we're talking

Unknown:

about a lot of negative ways people are doing advertising and

Unknown:

how we're like being bombarded with it. But we need to

Unknown:

remember, it's never gonna go away, unfortunately. I mean, it

Unknown:

is how brands, you know, let people know about their product.

Unknown:

But, you know, we need to as marketing people, we need to

Unknown:

remember that, you know, what's going on out there. And, you

Unknown:

know, how do we do it in a way that is positive for consumers?

Unknown:

How do we do it in a way that makes them feel happy? And like,

Unknown:

not stressed?

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, I think that Yeah, cuz advertising really

Lindsay Poss:

isn't all bad. I mean, if good products could get sold by just

Lindsay Poss:

sitting on the shelf nicely and quietly, we wouldn't have

Lindsay Poss:

advertising but that's just not the reality of the world. So I

Lindsay Poss:

am not against advertising or marketing. It is just a lot. Um,

Lindsay Poss:

how do you kind of see that changing as we get more into

Lindsay Poss:

metaverse? Like, experiences more into virtual world? And all

Lindsay Poss:

of that? Yeah, what's the onslaught look

Unknown:

like? Oh, my God. I mean, like, you know, I bring

Unknown:

this up. I didn't even put this in my notes when I was thinking

Unknown:

about this podcast. But you know, now that I'm thinking

Unknown:

about it, and I bring it up constantly is the movie

Unknown:

Idiocracy. Which, you know, younger generation, if you have

Unknown:

not watched that, you need to watch it, it still holds up. I

Unknown:

watched it two weeks ago. Um, you know, it's one of these

Unknown:

things where, you know, when we have VR, we're already starting

Unknown:

to see it with different events like you know, the way VR and

Unknown:

fortnight you can go and watch concerts, you can go see

Unknown:

celebrities and influencers, you Justin Bieber, Travis Scott,

Unknown:

Marshmallow have all done concerts in fortnight. And so

Unknown:

like, the, I see that, you know, where, where are we getting

Unknown:

these experiences, where people can jump in, and, you know,

Unknown:

really experience cool stuff, which is great. You know, that's

Unknown:

a good start. One of the things when it comes to VR now is you

Unknown:

know, and I was I was just let me rewind a minute. Um, you

Unknown:

know, I back years ago, was one of the first people to even

Unknown:

like, I was at Steam, like at Valve, I was at Valve and

Unknown:

literally was playing with their prototypes of what ended up

Unknown:

becoming the HTC Vive. You know, I was at QuakeCon when John

Unknown:

Carmack literally had like a little folding card table in the

Unknown:

corner and had the first Oculus headset. And literally, he had

Unknown:

his game rust with no clipping on and just was like, here's the

Unknown:

Oculus headset. I definitely took it off within a minute and

Unknown:

almost threw up. And, you know, these devices when they first

Unknown:

came out, they were like 800 $1,200 Like it was really

Unknown:

expensive and You know, you started seeing in stores these

Unknown:

like little pop up cardboard, like things that you could put

Unknown:

your phone into. It just was not that great of an experience. But

Unknown:

now with like Oculus quest two, which is like $299, it is much

Unknown:

more accessible to get into. They actually have things now

Unknown:

like inserts to make it so you can actually wear your glasses

Unknown:

while being in VR, which was not something that you could do ages

Unknown:

ago. And it's wireless. Like the fact that it's like, you don't

Unknown:

have a whole bunch of cords going to your computer is insane

Unknown:

to me, like I had the first developer kit like with HTC

Unknown:

Vive, I have one of the first dev kits and it literally was a

Unknown:

pilot cords every single time I want to use it. It was like a

Unknown:

whole day's work to get it to work. And it was it was messy.

Unknown:

And so now it's accessible. So I see that like now this will be

Unknown:

the new frontier. I think the metaverse is still kind of being

Unknown:

defined in the sense that I even before this podcast, like

Unknown:

Googled again, to make sure I was like am I do it? Am I still

Unknown:

up to date? Because I feel old every minute.

Lindsay Poss:

Thanks Gen Z is there.

Unknown:

Right? Like yes, I know, I use Tik Tok, but I still

Unknown:

don't know how to use Snapchat, you know, things like that. But

Unknown:

um, you know, it's it's very accessible now. And that's going

Unknown:

to help brands get in there easily. And, you know, I think

Unknown:

we can look at the past of things that happened too early,

Unknown:

such as the first, you know, VR headsets, but also like, we can

Unknown:

look back at Second Life, which is a prime example of literally

Unknown:

having a second life, you have a virtual life. We can look at

Unknown:

games such as World of Warcraft, where guilds and things you

Unknown:

brought people together, you had these avatars. And you know, I

Unknown:

think it's important to tell people like literally the

Unknown:

metaverse is a very similar thing. Except you're, you're

Unknown:

literally like moving your body around like you are in there.

Unknown:

And I think that's the separation between like, say,

Unknown:

Second Life, versus what's happening with VR and AR. And I

Unknown:

think things like AR the fact that pretty much every single

Unknown:

phone out there at this point can handle AR technology.

Unknown:

Companies such as things, they actually offer instant AR

Unknown:

conversion, you upload a 3d model to things, it is instantly

Unknown:

converted into AR, you don't need to download any app to view

Unknown:

it, which is crazy to make like you can just literally click on

Unknown:

a link on things on a website, no apps needed. And then you're

Unknown:

viewing in AR. So you know, the accessibility is just so easy.

Unknown:

Now, like the barrier to entry, you can just get into creating

Unknown:

AR experiences, things like that. And I think snap also has

Unknown:

been doing Instagram, like has been doing a ton with those AR

Unknown:

experiences. And, you know, you go and look at say Riot Games

Unknown:

with League of Legends World Champion, you know, competition

Unknown:

that they had in Beijing, they literally had an AR experience

Unknown:

while the concert was going on where they had a dragon come in,

Unknown:

like these really cool things.

Lindsay Poss:

That was yeah, that was one of the coolest

Lindsay Poss:

things I've ever watched in sport and seeing it in the

Lindsay Poss:

stadium. I was just blown away, it was so cool. Highly recommend

Lindsay Poss:

for everyone out there to Google the YouTube video.

Unknown:

Oh, it's incredible. And so you have all these things

Unknown:

now where you can you can go into, there's some store, I

Unknown:

don't know if it's Gucci or Prada, there's some like fancy

Unknown:

store that obviously I can not afford because I don't remember

Unknown:

which store was that I went into one recently. And they literally

Unknown:

had an AR app, where you could just like look over the like the

Unknown:

purse or whatever. And it would tell you all the features and

Unknown:

tell you how much it costs. And they had no price tags in the

Unknown:

store, you had to use their app thing. Like and it was just a

Unknown:

camera really like it just you know, so there's these

Unknown:

experiences are being created. And when we talk about marketing

Unknown:

strategies for it, I think we're still very, very fresh in the

Unknown:

sense of like, we're still exploring what those marketing

Unknown:

opportunities are and how to do them. Well. Kind of like when

Unknown:

Twitch first came out, you know, how do we do live stream

Unknown:

marketing? Well, um, so I think we're gonna see a lot of

Unknown:

fumbles. But I think, you know, companies like fortnight, that's

Unknown:

kind of a whole range of generations getting in there and

Unknown:

stuff. Plus, you know, all these AR things, but also Facebook and

Unknown:

Oculus quest being so easy. I think we're gonna start seeing

Unknown:

more like experiments in the sense and we're gonna see a lot

Unknown:

failures, but you know, as long as we learn from them, I think

Unknown:

the strategies are really gonna start moving quickly.

Lindsay Poss:

What are you kind of is there anything that you're

Lindsay Poss:

sort of hoping to see that's different than maybe how

Lindsay Poss:

advertising has been not trying to lead in questions, but I'm

Lindsay Poss:

just curious about, you know, what your hopes are, I guess,

Lindsay Poss:

for whatever happens with the metaverse.

Unknown:

Yeah, I mean, one of the things things that I think

Unknown:

we should really keep in mind is things that have gone negative

Unknown:

in some things like, say Second Life, but also like there's been

Unknown:

even instances in VR. Recently, like I think in, there was some

Unknown:

Metaverse thing that happened recently where a girl was or

Unknown:

woman was like harassed

Lindsay Poss:

in the game was a girl, which makes it worse.

Unknown:

Yeah, because I couldn't remember like, what her

Unknown:

age was or anything, but

Lindsay Poss:

she was harassed. early teen. Oof, that's rough.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah.

Unknown:

And so we're still companies are missing the mark

Unknown:

on things like this. Because you know, if you had a woman on your

Unknown:

team, but not just like one woman, but multiple women on the

Unknown:

team, and multiple, like minorities, they probably could

Unknown:

have raised that red flag of like, hey, we need to have

Unknown:

community standards in place to protect people. And, you know,

Unknown:

the reason I say multiple women is because, you know, multiple

Unknown:

minorities even is we have internalized misogyny, misogyny,

Unknown:

I can never say that word correctly. We have internalized

Unknown:

issues. Yeah, it just, I can't I'm like, why do we have the

Unknown:

hardest word to define this. But the thing is, is that, you know,

Unknown:

we tend to become blind to things because when you grow up,

Unknown:

and you're taught that, like, something is just the way it is,

Unknown:

because it is the way it is, it's the way it's been done for

Unknown:

years. You know, it, you tend to get stuck in that yourself.

Unknown:

Like, you tend to think yourself, like, if you grow up,

Unknown:

thinking that you know, everything that blue is blue, if

Unknown:

everybody in your life told you that that was green, you grew up

Unknown:

thinking and screen. And even if one person told you like, no,

Unknown:

that's actually blue, you might not believe it. And you might

Unknown:

just be like, well, you're weird. But that isn't the case.

Unknown:

And we can look back at like the history of, you know, we've

Unknown:

always had LGBT communities our whole lives. But, you know, they

Unknown:

couldn't be out open about and they still a lot of times can't

Unknown:

be in the open about, you know, their sexual orientation.

Unknown:

Because generation after generation was taught that that

Unknown:

is not okay. And so, you know, we need multiple people from

Unknown:

multiple different viewpoints, but also we need allies to bring

Unknown:

people out of that train of thought. Um, so you know, when

Unknown:

we come to, you know, these communities and things that are

Unknown:

happening in literally creating societies. And I think that's

Unknown:

something people need to realize is when we're talking about the

Unknown:

metaverse, and we're talking about, say, VR chat, you're

Unknown:

literally creating a society that so how are you protecting

Unknown:

it?

Lindsay Poss:

That's a new, that's a new way of thinking

Lindsay Poss:

about it for me. Not that it's not true, but that's a very

Lindsay Poss:

succinct way of describing how it's necessarily different than

Lindsay Poss:

better life or Second Life. Yeah, yeah. It's Second Life was

Lindsay Poss:

was a game. I mean, it's hard to it's hard to exactly imagine the

Lindsay Poss:

crossover between the game and social media, but I think the

Lindsay Poss:

word society kind of describes that pretty well.

Unknown:

Because if you think about it, you're creating a

Unknown:

society that also has economies, you have like city planning,

Unknown:

almost like you have all these things in when you look at Game

Unknown:

Studios and their structures. They literally a lot of studios

Unknown:

have like economic people on their teams to design these

Unknown:

systems. You know, they have people who have studied

Unknown:

sociology, you know, world Warcraft, where there was like a

Unknown:

virus or whatever has been studied with virus virologists.

Unknown:

Wow, I cannot speak English sometimes. But you know, they

Unknown:

exactly. Like y'all know what I'm saying. Like, you know,

Unknown:

these things have been studied by different sociologists. Wow,

Unknown:

so, so, society, professors and stuff, yeah, sociologists.

Unknown:

Something like that. But, you know, it's, it's really

Unknown:

important to understand that we are creating new worlds. We're

Unknown:

creating, you know, so we need to remember like, yeah, okay,

Unknown:

this is the wild, wild west, you know, it's new frontiers that we

Unknown:

haven't explored before. And think about, you know, the when

Unknown:

you look at, you know, through history, unexplored places, you

Unknown:

know, societies coming in. This is the wild wild west. So do we

Unknown:

want it to be free rein with no laws where people can just

Unknown:

murder people because they're not happy about it? Like what

Unknown:

Yeah, and gaming sometimes if you know PvP is on and I don't

Unknown:

like this person, I'm gonna just, you know, kill them. But,

Unknown:

you know, how do we protect those minorities just like we

Unknown:

would in real life? You know, when we come to the metaverse,

Unknown:

we can't separate that avatar too much because you know,

Unknown:

remember with things like Twitter and stuff, it's that

Unknown:

whole mask, you're wearing a mask. So you can still have a

Unknown:

mask in these worlds. But, and that has helped a lot of people

Unknown:

break out of their shell. But it's also really hurt a lot of

Unknown:

people the fact that you know, on Twitter and things people can

Unknown:

be harassed like that, I can't even tell you how many times

Unknown:

people have told me to self because I did a panel on like

Unknown:

being a woman in gaming. And you know what, that person would

Unknown:

probably never tell me it to my face.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, it is, ya know, it's so so much easier to

Lindsay Poss:

hide online. I don't feel as if I feel as if our Tech has

Lindsay Poss:

evolved much faster than our I don't know if the if it's

Lindsay Poss:

societal norms. I don't know if its ability to stand. But it's

Lindsay Poss:

like, we have tools that are way more powerful than we have the

Lindsay Poss:

language that communication to handle well. The laws. Laws are

Lindsay Poss:

way behind. And even things like corporate governance, even self

Lindsay Poss:

self impose laws are way behind. And I don't necessarily think

Lindsay Poss:

that's anyone's fault, because I think the tools grew much faster

Lindsay Poss:

than than we did. But it's it's gonna take a lot of years to

Lindsay Poss:

catch up to that. And I think with the coming of the

Lindsay Poss:

metaverse, yeah, you're right. It's a whole new society now.

Lindsay Poss:

We're already struggling with our real world. Exactly.

Unknown:

And that's what I was just gonna, like, had is like,

Unknown:

we have people being harassed in real life. And we have people

Unknown:

being harassed in VR, like so. You know, we haven't even

Unknown:

finished in real life, helping people and like creating safe

Unknown:

places for people. So we're gonna be struggling, obviously

Unknown:

in the metaverse.

Lindsay Poss:

Well, I know I had about 50 Other questions for you

Lindsay Poss:

that we didn't get to, which means that you're just gonna

Lindsay Poss:

have to come back on. So that's fine. That's fine. So I'm gonna

Lindsay Poss:

do a quick summary of what we were able to cover. And then I'm

Lindsay Poss:

going to ask you the final question that I asked every

Lindsay Poss:

guest. Just to quickly summarize, we started off with a

Lindsay Poss:

really long chat on influencer marketing that was very

Lindsay Poss:

fascinating, as someone who has a lot of experience in it, but

Lindsay Poss:

your your opinion and your experiences are really valuable.

Lindsay Poss:

Influencer marketing can make or break a brand. Smaller

Lindsay Poss:

influencers have good networks with each other. And so that can

Lindsay Poss:

make a really big difference in brand strategy, people. And when

Lindsay Poss:

it comes to, you know, consumers interacting with influencer

Lindsay Poss:

marketing, people want to know more about who and what they're

Lindsay Poss:

buying from an influencers kind of represent that friendly word

Lindsay Poss:

of mouth marketing. So it's important to also with that have

Lindsay Poss:

influencers be honest, because if you're paying someone to be

Lindsay Poss:

dishonest, then they lose their own credibility. And it all

Lindsay Poss:

relies on the spirit of trust and honesty. When it comes to

Lindsay Poss:

why people trust influencers, you made a great point that is

Lindsay Poss:

we're getting fed information. 24/7 people want to be

Lindsay Poss:

comfortable and find real information that kind of be a

Lindsay Poss:

guidepost or a sign to do that, which is why they look to people

Lindsay Poss:

that seem trustable. We also talked about how advertising

Lindsay Poss:

isn't all bad. It's just changed a lot. And it's become a lot to

Lindsay Poss:

handle. But it's there's still a lot of positives to advertising

Lindsay Poss:

and marketing. When it comes to VR and Metaverse experiences,

Lindsay Poss:

things are getting more accessible not only to

Lindsay Poss:

consumers, but to brands, which means that we're gonna have a

Lindsay Poss:

new frontier as brands start to move in. We'll see some fumbles

Lindsay Poss:

and how brands activate in their Metaverse experiences and what

Lindsay Poss:

they what they decide to ultimately do. But it's a huge

Lindsay Poss:

mark that people actually can move in and can start trying an

Lindsay Poss:

experiment. Somebody so far, maybe missing the mark with some

Lindsay Poss:

of the developments, especially when it comes to things like

Lindsay Poss:

community standards. Having those in place really early on

Lindsay Poss:

it can help a community or an experience or whatever it is an

Lindsay Poss:

object grow in a really healthy and comfortable way. People need

Lindsay Poss:

help recognizing why it's important to have those

Lindsay Poss:

standards in place and what they mean, which means they have to

Lindsay Poss:

bring diversity onto your team so that you can learn from other

Lindsay Poss:

folks who might have gone through some things. And the

Lindsay Poss:

metaverse. This is just so poignant. But the metaverse

Lindsay Poss:

means you're actually creating a society with full on economies

Lindsay Poss:

language was city planning with way more, there's a lot of

Lindsay Poss:

responsibilities that come with that. And it's not necessarily

Lindsay Poss:

good to have everything be free rein. But we also have a lot to

Lindsay Poss:

figure out that. So are a last little section I like to ask

Lindsay Poss:

this of every guest because I think it's a great way of

Lindsay Poss:

letting other people know wherever they're at the things

Lindsay Poss:

that you wish you had known when you were in that place. So in my

Lindsay Poss:

moment of reflection, I want to ask you what is one thing you

Lindsay Poss:

would like to tell your younger self about getting into the

Lindsay Poss:

gaming industry and being

Unknown:

festival? Oh, god.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, I've gotten that response sometimes do.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah,

Unknown:

you know, it's such a tough thing in the sense that,

Unknown:

you know, I there's probably a million things But it's not just

Unknown:

like about getting into gaming, it's just life in general, you

Unknown:

know, in the sense of really exploring oneself and learning.

Unknown:

But you know, one of the things I probably would have told my

Unknown:

younger self is, you know? Well, now I keep on I keep on going to

Unknown:

say stuff, and then I'm like, You know what? No, because one

Unknown:

of the things that I really tried to do when I was young,

Unknown:

and I still try to do is really like, learn everything I can

Unknown:

learn about different aspects, learn about different cultures,

Unknown:

things like that. And, you know, when it comes to my younger

Unknown:

self, I probably would have said, like to, you know, I

Unknown:

probably would have said something around the lines to

Unknown:

prevent myself from burning out, you know, because when you're

Unknown:

working in the game industry, it's such a high risk, high

Unknown:

reward industry. And you can really get burned out easily.

Unknown:

And something I always did when I was younger, was like, I would

Unknown:

work every single weekend, I would be traveling, like I would

Unknown:

be flying out every other week, which is great. But also like,

Unknown:

it really hurt my health in the long run. And so like, something

Unknown:

I would tell my younger self is just, you know, take a break,

Unknown:

take a breather, take more, actually take those vacations,

Unknown:

you know, and really reflect on yourself and like, you know,

Unknown:

meditate, then, you know, just kind of make inner peace for

Unknown:

yourself.

Lindsay Poss:

So how do you balance those two things? You

Lindsay Poss:

know, constant learning, but also taking a

Unknown:

break? Yeah, you know, and that's the thing that I

Unknown:

think I still struggle with today is when I get on a new

Unknown:

project, I like deep dive. And I have a really hard time saying

Unknown:

no, in the sense of, you know, if someone asked me for help, or

Unknown:

someone like, you know, just on the weekend, even, like, needs

Unknown:

research up or whatever, I still struggled to this day saying no,

Unknown:

I like helping people. And so it's one of those things of

Unknown:

like, just remembering to take time for yourself, and learning

Unknown:

how to how to say no, and how to, like, be like, you know,

Unknown:

what, even know to yourself?

Lindsay Poss:

And that's a good one. Yeah, exactly.

Unknown:

And I think that's something like I was so happy

Unknown:

last year, actually, a year ago today, I like went off into the

Unknown:

woods with no cell phone service for like, a week. And like,

Unknown:

literally just shut off from everything and like, was fishing

Unknown:

and stuff and just I needed, but it was also because like, pretty

Unknown:

much my boyfriend forced me out there. You know, because I

Unknown:

needed someone to say no to you. Exactly, right. And so because

Unknown:

like, I have a hard time saying no to myself, I do not know my

Unknown:

limits sometimes. And you know, I will work through the pain,

Unknown:

the sickness, whatever is going on the stress, I will work

Unknown:

through it until like, literally I crash, which is not great. So

Unknown:

learning how to say no to yourself. And like, you know,

Unknown:

even if it's learning or research project or whatever,

Unknown:

you need to take those moments to like play games with your

Unknown:

friends. Or like, you know, take a moment to not do whatever

Unknown:

you're doing to like, go walk around a park or something, you

Unknown:

know, you need to do those things, even if you don't want

Unknown:

to

Lindsay Poss:

like that. So keep learning but no one to stop. And

Lindsay Poss:

no one to say no to yourself as well.

Unknown:

Yeah, yeah. Pretty much.

Lindsay Poss:

So much for coming on. Where can people find your

Lindsay Poss:

follow you or reach out to you if you are comfortable with

Lindsay Poss:

that?

Unknown:

Yeah, no, the probably the best place for me is

Unknown:

Twitter. Like I tell everyone reached out to me on Twitter,

Unknown:

like my Instagram, super private, Facebook, super

Unknown:

private. And that's as of recently because I learned to

Unknown:

say no to myself, and I learned to take myself like offline.

Unknown:

Right like and that's such a tough thing. So it's Twitter

Unknown:

best place. It's at OMG laser cannon. So which lasers but with

Unknown:

the Z so at O M G LA's Zhi er, Kitt ens. Oh, my God laser

Unknown:

cannons, which does my best name ever.

Lindsay Poss:

It really is. Also Twitter is also my preferred

Lindsay Poss:

form of social media. So I get it. Yeah. For all the listeners

Lindsay Poss:

out there. Thank you so much for joining me, be sure to leave

Lindsay Poss:

those lesser ratings and reviews. Also, check out other

Lindsay Poss:

holodeck media podcasts, including meta business for all

Lindsay Poss:

the metaverse finance stories you could ever want. And

Lindsay Poss:

business of esports for interviews with industry

Lindsay Poss:

leaders. I'm on Twitter as for mentioned also an Instagram and

Lindsay Poss:

LinkedIn at Lindsay poss. You can catch me Wednesday nights on

Lindsay Poss:

the business esports live after show and you can catch this

Lindsay Poss:

podcast in your feed every Tuesday. We'll see you all next

Lindsay Poss:

week.

Unknown:

Thanks for joining us here on meta woman. Make sure

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About the Podcast

Seeking Alpha
Your sherpas in the wild worlds of crypto and dating
Join two women in their journeys through their careers, dating, and navigating emerging technology. We're here to learn together, be open about our lives (including the struggles and successes), have fun, and give a platform to some of the most interesting voices around the industry.
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